Compare different styles of horse training.?
How would you compare the different methods that are used for horse breaking and training? What are the main differences and what kind of evidence is there to prove that one method is better than another?
Thanks. I realise that there is no definate answer and that each horse is different, but I really would just like a bit of an overview of what methods there are and what makes each one different from the next. I guess if they were all the same there would only be one method, not many. For example, what are the differences between Parelli, Monty Roberts, methods not described as natural, etc. I have a book by Andrew McLean who trains by operant conditioning and believes that all horses should be trained the same way, and all problems are caused by incorrect training. I'm not sure I really believe that horses have no individuality though as I have seen so many different 'personalities' in horses I have known.
In my experience with trainers, horses, and horsepeople…. GOOD trainers don't limit themselves to one method over another. No two horses are the same, so the same methods on every horse doesn't always work out. And depending on the horse, the working environment, and the owners expectations, you sometimes need to switch between gentle methods and not so gentle methods to get the job done. So in my opinion, the trainers that are experienced know that every training method has a time and place. Doesn't mean every method gets used, but there is some amount of merit to each method. Which method is best depends on the horse and the situation.
I don't know how well that answers your question, but I have been training horses for a long time. My focus is not on conforming to one method or another. Rather my focus is on training a good, dependable horse in the safest manor possible for both horse and human.
edit:
There is not so much a difference in the methods as in the delivery of those methods. Parelli uses "games" to train horses, and the games make the training fun, and they look neat. Unfortunately I don't think the methods transfer over to the practical aspects of riding. So the horse might play the games really well, but they actually ride and work poorly. But that has just been my experience with Parelli.
Monty Roberts is the "joining up" method. A lot of people like the method because it is really hands off. I personally see it as running the horse in the round pen until it gives up and says, "Go ahead, eat me." In my opinion, it may be hands off physically, but mentally I think it is kind of harsh. I don't want to ride a horse that has given up.
I don't have a lot of experience with Linda Tellington Jones and the T-Touch method, and GaWaNi Pony Boy is from what I have seen of him, not worth looking into.
I would suggest more practical trainers like Buck Brannaman, John Lyons or Clinton Anderson. Buck Brannaman is the better one in my opinion. Nothing against the other two, I just don't feel like he is always trying to sell me something.
There are a lot of other trainers out there, and the best recomendation I can give you is to look into as many trainers as you can. They all have different tricks and points of view that can be learned from. Most of the ones that are on the market now are "natural" gentle trainers, but, short of tying the horse up, most of the "new" methods are based on old ones. If you go online or to the book store you will find books on everything from training ranch horses to clicker training. Get a sampling and try some out. None are better than the other, but you really need to know more than just one method to train a good horse.
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May 24th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
Breaking and Training are 2 different things. You break out a colt and then it goes into training.
Are you wanting to find different techniques used when breaking or training?
LOL, to the person below me. True horseman of the past who "broke" horses for a living did not go around breaking the horses spirit. Thats &*()&*)_. Old school does not mean that horses were tied up, tortured or whatever else you want to come up with… those stories come from people that were not true horseman. The true horseman have been breaking horses without "breaking spirits" or hurting the horse by any means. True horseman adapt to the horse they are working with… Your Parellis, Lyons, Anderson, etc. etc. all use techniques from the past or "traditional" training methods in what they do, they just want you to think that all this horrible stuff happened and they are the gods of their time. LOL, its a joke.
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http://www.HiddenHQH.com
May 24th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Traditional vs. Gentle.
In the traditional method "breaking" the horse's spirit was the accepted method of training. Typically a hind leg is tied up or the horse is otherwise immobolized and subjected to different frightening situations until it loses the will to resist and becomes submissive.
Outside of the HUGE potential for the risk of injury to both the trainer and the horse - it's also just unnecessary because it's possible to train a horse simply by communicating with it in a language it understands without having to risk injury while training a horse.
My barn owner starts horses using gentle methods and only in extreme circumstances have I ever even seen a horse buck the first time it's mounted (it was one particular mare who was 8 and had never been green broke but had an abused past). So.. yeah
Edit: To the person above me.. to each his own. Where I come from we have so-called "traditional" (aka 'Cowboy') trainers and we have so-called "Gentle" (aka my barn owner) trainers. Call it what you want, give it whatever fancy name you feel like - but in my opinion John Lyons and Parelli do *not* employ the methods that were OFTEN used from the old days. Like the person below me has pointed out - everyone is going to have their own personal opinion on this and it's going to be difficult to get a definitive answer without doing your own research and coming to your own conclusions. I merely provided one possible description. He asked how would we compare them.. these are two methods I chose to compare. I'm not criticizing your response, don't waste time criticizing mine.
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May 24th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
This is the horse world. You are not going to get a definitive answer. I have seen horses trained from every type(just about) of discipline. Some are great, others are not. The old traditional way of saddle breaking a horse is all but gone.
The best gauge of horse training method is the horse. You need to find out which method a particular horse responds to best. Some need a heavy hand. Others you can almost talk into training.
The methods are too many to list and if anyone tells you they know them all, just move on to the next answer. New things are being developed every day.
I have been in the horse industry a long time and trained many horses. I can tell you this for certain. No two horses were exactly alike so I had to make adjustments in the training.
References :
Horse rancher/Wrangler/Dealer (retired) NC USA
35 years experience
May 24th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
There are those trainers who are slow and take their time and those who are in a rush. Also some horses learn faster than others and some are more intelligent than others.. Those horses take longer to train. It all depends what you are working with.
Methods to prove one way of training is better than another?
Well, I would look at the final outcome. A horse that has been scared into doing something will show signs of nervousness and being hyper.
I would go out to your trainer's facilities and observe.
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May 24th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
In my experience with trainers, horses, and horsepeople…. GOOD trainers don't limit themselves to one method over another. No two horses are the same, so the same methods on every horse doesn't always work out. And depending on the horse, the working environment, and the owners expectations, you sometimes need to switch between gentle methods and not so gentle methods to get the job done. So in my opinion, the trainers that are experienced know that every training method has a time and place. Doesn't mean every method gets used, but there is some amount of merit to each method. Which method is best depends on the horse and the situation.
I don't know how well that answers your question, but I have been training horses for a long time. My focus is not on conforming to one method or another. Rather my focus is on training a good, dependable horse in the safest manor possible for both horse and human.
edit:
There is not so much a difference in the methods as in the delivery of those methods. Parelli uses "games" to train horses, and the games make the training fun, and they look neat. Unfortunately I don't think the methods transfer over to the practical aspects of riding. So the horse might play the games really well, but they actually ride and work poorly. But that has just been my experience with Parelli.
Monty Roberts is the "joining up" method. A lot of people like the method because it is really hands off. I personally see it as running the horse in the round pen until it gives up and says, "Go ahead, eat me." In my opinion, it may be hands off physically, but mentally I think it is kind of harsh. I don't want to ride a horse that has given up.
I don't have a lot of experience with Linda Tellington Jones and the T-Touch method, and GaWaNi Pony Boy is from what I have seen of him, not worth looking into.
I would suggest more practical trainers like Buck Brannaman, John Lyons or Clinton Anderson. Buck Brannaman is the better one in my opinion. Nothing against the other two, I just don't feel like he is always trying to sell me something.
There are a lot of other trainers out there, and the best recomendation I can give you is to look into as many trainers as you can. They all have different tricks and points of view that can be learned from. Most of the ones that are on the market now are "natural" gentle trainers, but, short of tying the horse up, most of the "new" methods are based on old ones. If you go online or to the book store you will find books on everything from training ranch horses to clicker training. Get a sampling and try some out. None are better than the other, but you really need to know more than just one method to train a good horse.
References :
May 24th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
I would compare different methods of breaking "or" training a horse simply by…..one works and the other doesn't.
The differences as already mentioned ARE too many to list -good luck with that one.
The evidence to prove one method works better than anther is the horses positive responce to what ever aide you are giving.
I'm not sure where you were truly going with this question….if you were looking for info, or just curious what others did or thought on the subject.
The bottom line is there is not really a right or wrong way to break "or" train a horse, as long as abuse is not in the picture and the well being of the horse is kept in mind during the process.
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May 24th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
We have always broke horses along traditional methods. I'm with HHQH on Parelli, John Lyons etc because they are taking old time methods and passing them off as some new invention and way of understanding and along the way, gaining access to people's pocket books and getting very rich in the process. It's a fad and the proof is in the pudding. I've yet to hear of any world class dressage horse or eventer trained with those methods.
Argentine's are very brutal in the way that they break and train polo ponies but the fact remains, they produce the most outstanding polo ponies in the world and players in the US and the UK will pay thousands for an Argie pony.
I've have seen various methods employed for breaking and training and there is a reason that throughout time, traditional methods have been passed down and that's because they work and produce results.
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May 24th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
I would compare the different methods of breaking as just that…different. You have those that like to get it done and over with, get the buck out. Those that take the time to not scare the horse and be slow. Training is the same way..different. Slow and patient, fast and over with. It's not that one method is better then the other. It's what you prefer to do. My grandfather is old school..and that is NOT breaking the horses spirit!! what a load of crap. It is the time and patience one. I have done both because of the horse. Some horses are fast and over with and some are the slow and patient kinds. I like both as long as the horse can handle either one. You have your ADHD horses and they would go crazy with the slow training and you have your others that would blow up if you were fast with them. Evidence can go both ways. Just depends on you and the horse.
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May 24th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
I 100% agree with kicking bear, no 2 horses are ever the same and good trainers develop and provide a well rounded training strategy using technigues from both old and new styles to provide the guidance the horse needs to achieve desired results.
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May 24th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
The two main methods : "Traditional" and the Natural Method.
The tradition method being beating, violence and force.
The Natural method being gentle with the horse and using knowledge and understanding to get the horse to want to work with you, which is way better in my opinion.
Evidence? The difference in the horses is the most obvious evidence there is. Horses forced into submission are no comparison to those which want to work for their owner and give 100%.
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May 24th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Im not sure about comparing them other then seeing them work in action. The evidence is really in the horse and how it behaves. Im not srue there really is certain boundary for ways of training. I mean i guess i see two ways. Either the nice way where you really dont want to do anything to hurt you or the horse or the second where you think beating them is th answer to everything.
I from experience have seen what happens to these horses in the ring. I love my horse very much and there are times when i do give him a nice swat hard on the nose becuase he is being dumb but i never take the whip to the horse or a stick or anythin like that. Horses like things that make them feel safe and not annoying.
I can go to a horse show and show you what i mean. I see people with gate problems and they blame there horse which is just dumb and anal retentive because more then likely they were the ones that cuased it. Either by becuase there horse lost and they felt like taking it out on them or they have ran practice so many times that they really hate it. or they really are being forced to run and they are not happy. It would be like someone taking it out on you for losing a game or someone making you play a sport you really hate over and over again so much that it makes you sick. I am sorry to say lots of people are like this. And yes there are times when they win but at what cost. That horse will never do anything for you becuase it loves you but is afraid of what you may do to it.
Now on the otherhand, i train becasue i love horses and i love riding and my horse. I ahve practices alot but only until he told me to stop. Yeah they can tell you . My horse was running awesome during practice and as well at shows and i kept pushing him to run for the praactices and one day out of the blue he rams me into the barrel, and you could tell it was on purpose. I thought nothing of it at the time and kept practicing with him. It got to where he lunged at the barrel to hit it on purpose. So i decided to stop practicing and see how he was at the show, nothing great runs no problems but as soon as i got him back to practicing he started up again, so now i dont ever practice him. I will with no barrels to warm him up and i make him do barrel turns standing still just to get him into the feeling but no practices accept when we knock which is never. My ultimate motto for anyone is not just speed but perfection. You dont want people looking at you at shows saying well yeah shes good but she beats her horse when they lose or it sure takes along time to get him into the gate and he knocks a lot. You want them saying wow she is fast and her horse loves running and they walk into the gate nicely and thats someone you have to watch out for all the time.
I dont knock and i dont push him faster then he wants to go and we usuallly win i have more then 100 ribbons to prove it but not to brag just showing you what happens when horses and people see eye to eye and love each other and have a great elationship i wish this on everyone and hope to see more love and good runs then whips and spurs and harsh words and beatings, its not horseman like we have our reputation to uphold!!!
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May 24th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
you need to watch clinton anderson i like him bc he uses physical contact with the horses if they need smacked he does it parali and the other one mentioned dont, horses need to no who is in charge and clinton shows them that he is in a way that they learn but they still have respect
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